The Don Martin - Jeff Smelser - Mark J. Ward Discussion on

I Corinthians 14:34,35


Ward's 7th


The following is brother Mark J. Ward's next in the exchange on the proper meaning and application of I Corinthians 14:34,35 for folks today.

Subject: Re: I Corinthians 14:34,35
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 20:12:30 -0500
From: markjward@darientel.net
To: mars-list@mtsu.edu
CC: dmartin5@concentric.net, jeffsmelser@ntgreek.net, markjward@darientel.net

Mark J. Ward here to Don Martin, Jeff Smelser & the list:

I am enjoying this study greatly. And, like Don, I am glad that we are
not "mad" at each other, but we are contending earnestly for what we understand
the truth of God's Word to be. I love brother Don and Jeff and appreciate them
for so many things.

Don, I don't ask you questions over and over to try to get you to answer them
~like I want you to, ~per se~, but to get you to answer them (in full)!!! <G>
On Jeff's Question One, and on my Question One, you either have not fully read
the question, don't understand the question, or (un)intentionally did not
answer it in full. Why not, good brother?

Also, please clear up the spaghetti, brother Don, between your contention that
I Tim. 2:11,12 is ~~assembly only~...I have taken you to mean "assembly of the
local church only" up to your last posts (4-1-03). Now, it seems that you call
any gathering to study the Bible (2 or more people) an "assembly". I believe
such is equivocation (if you are using the same word and switching deinitions
back and forth), so please explain how it is not equivocaqion...since we have
been discussing I Cor. 14:34,35 IS assembly only (of the local church)
instruction (which also contains some non-assembly authorization <g>). Did I
miss something? <g> ThaNKS.

There are several issues that brother Don repeats, and I will deal with later
as we continue, Lord willing. But suffice it to say that Don has NOT answered
(unless I missed it) the ~argumentation rebuttal~ that I gave concerning:

- UNinspired women are not "inferior", and they have to be silent in the
church...why would prophetesses be "inferior" if God instructs them to be
silent in the church? (NOTE: Some UNinspired women know LOTS MORE than some men about scripture, yet God prohibits women from speaking in the assembly of the
local church, but such does NOT make them inferior, Don argues it does, tho he
hasn't written that about uninspired women! Please deal with this argument).
- INSPIRED MEN, like prophets and tongue speakers, had to hold their peace and
be silent (at times God designated) and such did NOT make them "inferior", so
what's the point that Don is trying to make (such is not valid reasoning) with
the "inferior" line of argumentation Don advances?
- Don has ~assumed~ much in this discussion, namely: that the women of I Cor.
14:34,35 (to whom Paul is referring) are: (1st assumption) wives only, (2nd
assumption) wives of PROPHETS ONLY, (3rd assumption) who were asking questions
IN AN INSUBORDINATE AND DISORDERLY FASHION. Where is the proof of these
assumptions?
- JUST LIKE "Eat at home" does NOT exclude the restaurant eating away from the
local church assembly...."ask husbands at home" does not preclude women who are
not married from asking men questions away from the assembly. Don doesn't deal
with this part of the argumentation, unless I missed it. Please deal with this
Don. Thanks.
- Prophets were to be silent when something would be "revealed" to another
prophet in the same assembly, yet Don argues as if the prophets knew
everything! IF so, WHY would they have to hold ~their peace~ (if they knew it
already???) I think the BIBLE answers this matter for when ~something~ was
revealed to another prophet would have a great bearing on this <G>! Don argues
as tho such is absurd. But I read of it happening, in the NT.

Don did not direcly answer my question one. Did you notice that dear readers?
Don told us many times that he didn't think such a scenario as I asked was in
the mind of Paul or the teaching of I Cor. 14: 34,35...but did Don tell us (in
each matter asked) whether he believes the situation was RIGHT or WRONG??? No!

Don did you really carefully read the question...would you please re-read it
and fully answer it (to which I will then respond) and allow me one follow up,
like you did of our good brother Jeff? <g> I hope so. THANKS> PLEASE answer the
question again, brother Don, including the following:

FOLLOW UP FOR DON......IS IT WRONG??? for
L. AN UNINSPIRED WOMAN WHO IS MARRIED TO A PROPHET ASKING A MAN OTHER THAN HER HUSBAND or A WOMAN(like a man or woman more knowledgeable in the scriptures than her, whether inspired or not) a question away from the assembly of the local church?

******
Mark here:
Here are my answers to Question One:

QUESTION ONE:
...are the following activities WRONG?

IF NO, please give a scripture if you can. Please note that the "setting"
changes in G-K, but I have a particular reason for asking those questions.
Thanks. ALSO, G-K may require TWO answers, if you make a distinction
between "at home" and "the simultaneous Bible class arrangement" with
regards to "away from the assembly of the local church" to the degree
that you have different answers in that regard. THANKS <G>.

NOTE: IF your answer is YES that it is wrong, PLEASE BE SURE TO IDENTIFY
whether one or both (or a different) passage(s) applies: namely, the
teachings of I Cor. 14:34,35, (those verses specifically, now) and
I Tim. 2:11,12 to the situations/scenarios below:

A. A PROPHETESS MARRIED TO A PROPHET, innocent in heart, raising her hand,
waiting to be called upon (thus non-disruptive like the simultaneous Bible
class arrangement), and asking a question in the assembly of the local
church?

YES, such is wrong per I Cor. 14:34,35...In the assembly of the local church
the Bible clearly teaches "for is a shame for a woman to speak in church" (I
Cor. 14:35b), so such is prohibited. I do not use I Tim. 2:11,12 to apply to
assembly only settings wherein questions are asked by women who do so with a
meek and quiet spirit.

B. A PROPHETESS NOT MARRIED TO A PROPHET, BUT MARRIED TO A SAINT WHO IS
UNINSPIRED, innocent in heart, raising her hand, waiting to be called upon
(thus non-disruptive like the simultaneous Bible class arrangement), and
asking a question in the assembly of the local church?

YES, such is wrong per I Cor. 14:34,35...In the assembly of the local church
the Bible clearly teaches "for is a shame for a woman to speak in church" (I
Cor. 14:35b), so such is prohibited. I do not use I Tim. 2:11,12 to apply to
assembly only settings wherein questions are asked by women who do so with a
meek and quiet spirit.

C. A PROPHETESS NOT MARRIED TO A PROPHET, BUT MARRIED TO AN ALIEN, innocent in heart, raising her hand, waiting to be called upon (thus non-disruptive
like the simultaneous Bible class arrangement), and asking a question in
the assembly of the local church?

YES, such is wrong per I Cor. 14:34,35...In the assembly of the local church
the Bible clearly teaches "for is a shame for a woman to speak in church" (I
Cor. 14:35b), so such is prohibited. I do not use I Tim. 2:11,12 to apply to
assembly only settings wherein questions are asked by women who do so with a
meek and quiet spirit.

D. An PROPHET'S WIFE WHO IS UNINSPIRED, innocent in heart, raising her hand,
waiting to be called upon (thus non-disruptive like the simultaneous Bible
class arrangement) and asking a question in the assembly of the local
church? .....

YES, such is wrong per I Cor. 14:34,35...In the assembly of the local church
the Bible clearly teaches "for is a shame for a woman to speak in church" (I
Cor. 14:35b), so such is prohibited. I do not use I Tim. 2:11,12 to apply to
assembly only settings wherein questions are asked by women who do so with a
meek and quiet spirit.

E. An UNMARRIED UNINSPIRED WOMAN (virgin, non-virgin or widow), innocent in
heart, raising her hand, waiting to be called upon (thus non-disruptive like
the simultaneous Bible class arrangement) and asking a question in the
assembly of the local church?

YES, such is wrong per I Cor. 14:34,35...In the assembly of the local church
the Bible clearly teaches "for is a shame for a woman to speak in church" (I
Cor. 14:35b), so such is prohibited. I do not use I Tim. 2:11,12 to apply to
assembly only settings wherein questions are asked by women who do so with a
meek and quiet spirit.

F. An UNMARRIED INSPIRED WOMAN (virgin, non-virgin or widow), innocent in
heart, raising her hand, waiting to be called upon (thus non-disruptive like
the simultaneous Bible class arrangement) and asking a question in the
assembly of the local church?

YES, such is wrong per I Cor. 14:34,35...In the assembly of the local church
the Bible clearly teaches "for is a shame for a woman to speak in church" (I
Cor. 14:35b), so such is prohibited. I do not use I Tim. 2:11,12 to apply to
assembly only settings wherein questions are asked by women who do so with a
meek and quiet spirit.

G. A PROPHETESS WHO IS MARRIED TO AN UNINSPIRED MAN asking
him a question "at home"?

First, notice that this "setting" is not the assembly of the local church. But,
note that I Cor. 14:34,35 DOES HAVE some non-assembly authorization (i.e. ask
their husbands at home)! Second, note that the woman is asking properly
throughout this entire line of questioning, so she is NOT being disorderly
(even away from the assembly) she is NOT being insubordinate, and she is NOT
teaching over men, or exercising dominion over men in the asking of this
question. Note that. The answer to the question is: NO, it is not wrong for a
prophetess to ask a Bible question of an uninspired husband "at home". NOTE
ALSO: the instruction in I Cor. 14:34,35 is not EXCLUSIVELY BINDING OR LIMITING
in such a way concerning married women HAVING TO ASK ~ONLY THEIR HUSBANDS~ ~ONLY IN THE HOME~ SETTING. But it does authorize such.
[EDITOR'S NOTE: Mark intended to have a portion of his answer to part "G" referencing I Tim. 2 at this point in his writing. He corrected this in what is noted as "Ward's 9th", but I insert in blue the answer here. Please check Ward's 9th to see wherein this correction was made. It is put here for the benefit of the reader since reference is made to this part of the G answer, the I TIm. 2 portion in particular, as well as the entire intended answer...further below in the writing in the answering of subsequent parts of the question below. Thanks. -mjw]
Mark here, I should have added the I Tim. 2:11,12 info to answering part G:
I Timothy 2:11,12 teaches that women are not allowed to usurp authority or exercise dominion over men anywhere at anytime. I Tim. 2 prevents women from being insubordinate, but not from merely asking questions in keeping with their God-assigned roles. I Tim. 2 can apply, then, to the assembly, to the simultaneous Bible class arrangement of the church, to Bible classes conducted in the home and elsewhere, and to non-Bible/non-religious settings.
NOTE: I Tim. 2:11,12 is a great passage and must be properly applied in all settings; this passage does NOT prohibit women from asking questions in the assembly ~per se~, it is I Cor. 14:34,35 that does not allow them "to speak" that prohibits them from asking questions. Now, it is always wrong, per I Tim 2 and other passages, for women to be disorderly, insubordinate and out of order! That is NOT what is under consideration in all of the parts to my Question ONE. NOTE FURTHER: I Tim. 2:11,12 is NOT being violated, for example, when women ask questions in "an assembly" like the simultaneous Bible class arrangement of the church. But IF the whole church be come together into one place (THE assembly of the church), like I Cor. 14 is referring to, even if you call it "Bible class", women are not to speak per 14:35b. Consider: as the proper application that would be drawn from I Tim. 2:11,12 for the church arrangement of a simultaneous Bible class wherein women ~CAN ask questions of the male teacher~ (which is NOT THE ASSEMBLY OF THE CHURCH), the "at home" setting is another place that is also NOT THE ASSEMBLY OF THE CHURCH, and I Tim. 2:11,12 applies there, as well. In other words, women are not wrong in asking questions OUTSIDE the assembly of the local church (all else concerning their deportment being in order).
End of Mark's "I Tim. 2:11-12 G portion" answer

H. A PROPHETESS WHO IS MARRIED TO AN UNINSPIRED MAN asking ANOTHER MAN (other than her husband, like a man more knowledgeable in the scriptures
whether inspired or not) a question away from the assembly of the local
church?

No, it is not wrong for a prophetess to ask a Bible question of a man other
than her uninspired husband a question away from the assembly of the local
church. NOTE: the instruction in I Cor. 14:34,35 is not EXCLUSIVELY BINDING
concerning married women HAVING TO ASK ~ONLY THEIR HUSBANDS~ ~ONLY IN THE HOME~ SETTING. (NOTE: G info on I Tim. 2:11,12 above)

I. A PROPHETESS WHO IS MARRIED TO AN UNINSPIRED MAN asking
ANOTHER WOMAN (like a woman who had great knowledge of the scriptures,
whether she had the gift of knowledge or no inspiration at all) a question
away from the assembly of the local church?

NO, such is not wrong. Note the answer given to G above.

J. AN UNINSPIRED WOMAN WHO IS MARRIED TO AN UNINSPIRED MAN asking ANOTHER MAN (other than her husband, like a man more knowledgeable in the scriptures
whether inspired or not) a question away from the assembly of the local
church?

NO, such is not wrong. Note the answer given to G above.

K. AN UNINSPIRED WOMAN WHO IS NOT MARRIED ASKING A MAN (like a man more knowledgeable in the scriptures whether inspired or not) a question away
from the assembly of the local church?

NO, such is not wrong. Note the answer given to G above.

L. AN UNINSPIRED WOMAN WHO IS MARRIED TO A PROPHET ASKING A MAN OTHER THAN HER HUSBAND or A WOMAN(like a man or woman more knowledgeable in the scriptures
than her, whether inspired or not) a question away from the assembly of the
local church?

NO, such is not wrong. Note the answer given to G above.
end of Mark's answer
*********

Brother Don, please don't dodge the directness of the question one, especially
those concerning the "prophets' wives" <g> Dear readers, did you NOTICE how Don
fielded that question? Brother Don ...if you can't say, that's fine...I
understand there is room for folks to study the issue more. Don't just say (if
you DO have a studied conviction on this matter) something like ~I think there
is a better way to handle questions.~ The question is asking, IS IT WRONG? and
does I Cor. 14:34,35 teach so? And, does I Tim. 2:11,12 teach so?

After Don and Jeff respond, I will respond to Don's answers to question one
more fully, then I believe it will be Don's turn to ask Question Two of Jeff
and myself.

Thanks,
Mark J. Ward


(from MARS-List Digest 4055, April 1, 2003)

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[Editor’s Note: This is one of the most in-depth, comprehensive studies between brethren on the issue of whether the women in the "b" part of verse 35 of I Corinthians 14:34,35 is "all women", including women today, or whether those women were only the "prophets' wives". We hope all readers will continue to study all Bible topics with open minds, willing to conform to God's Truth. Thanks for reading! - Mark J. Ward markjward@yahoo.com]


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