Don Martin - Jeff Smelser - Mark J. Ward Discussion on I Corinthians 14:34,35

The Don Martin - Jeff Smelser - Mark J. Ward Discussion on

I Corinthians 14:34,35

Ward's 1st

The following is brother Mark J. Ward's first in the exchange after the preliminary posts (see background and introductory link)

Subject: Re: I Corinthians 14:34,35
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 02:00:30 -0500
From: "Mark J. Ward" <markjward@darientel.net>
To: mars-list@mtsu.edu, dmartin5@concentric.net, jeffsmelser@ntgreek.net, markjward@darientel.net

Mark J. Ward here to brethren Don Martin and Jeff Smelser (and the list):

First of all, I would like to thank God and these two good brethren (and the listers) for this oppty to have such a discussion/study. Also, I want to thank brethren Martin and Smelser for the work they put into their first posts on this study. This will be an abbreviated post <g>.

There are folks who live in areas that are not blessed as we are. Let us not take for granted this medium by which all of us, who are several miles apart, are able to study in this forum. May God's blessings be upon us all as we study, test, examine, press points and contend for truth in love.

"I Corinthians 14: 34, 35", AN EXPLANATION:

The passage reads as follows:
"34: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35: And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church"

Does I Cor. 14:34,35 apply to women today? I believe so. Why do I believe so? In part, due to my understanding of the "b" part of verse 35 which reads, "for it is a shame for women to speak in the church". Thus, one might take a number of views on "just who" the "women" might be in earlier references to the ~female gender~ in verses 34 and 35a, but when we get to 35b, I contend that the text instructs us that all women (then and now) are included without question. (NOTE: I am not necessarily, however, excluding all women, then and now, from the instruction found in other areas of verses 34,35 referencing the female gender).

VERSE 34
Paul writes:
"Let your women…" this is the Corinthian women in particular at the church of God at Corinth (1:2), but the instruction would extend to all women then and now (See vs 33b; Matthew 28:18-20; 2 Tim. 2:2; I Cor. 4:17).

"keep silence in the churches:…" means not to speak a word in the assembly (i.e. the church together in one place). Just like the tongue speaker who was in a situation without an interpreter was not to speak a word (see vs. 28), the woman is not to speak a word in the church. NOTE: this instruction is not applicable to the simultaneous Bible class arrangement, but when the "whole church be come together into one place" (vs. 19,23,26,28,33,34,35).

"but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." means that all women are commanded in the new testament dispensation to be under obedience as women have been instructed in previous times. This is NOT to say that we can find a verse in the law of Moses that parallels this, but rather passages like Gen 3:15,16 and I Tim. 2:12-14 show the matter of headship and God's law of subjection with regards to the male and female genders since the beginning. This is NOT a dig against women, as some who promote women preachers today would accuse Paul of advocating, but rather God's designated roles for men and women. This would also apply to "prophetesses", which we will have more to say about in the discussion portion of our study. While women are not allowed to usurp dominion over man anywhere at anytime; women are particularly forbidden from speaking "in church" in this text (NOT merely forbidden from speaking ONLY in such a way as to exercise dominion over men, as some might contend, for they are not even allowed to ask a question…which is NOT necessarily authoritative in nature).

VERSE 35
Paul continues:
"And if they will learn any thing" gives us one particular wherein the women would not be able to speak a word in the church to understand a point of teaching in the assembly, for example, and would need to seek further clarification or instruction elsewhere.

"let them ask their husbands at home:" gives ONE solution, of several, that would be authorized (away or outside the assembly of the church) in that women could, for example, ask their husbands (if they had one) at home (one place that is not "the assembly" of several wherein they could speak). NOTE: such would NOT, however, preclude a married woman from asking a single man a question, so long as such was outside the assemblage of the local church. There are many situations, all of which would be proper for virgins, widows, ladies married to non-prophets, etc. to speak, but ALL such instances/situations would be outside the situation "when the whole church be come together into one place".

"for it is a shame for women to speak in the church" gives the inspired reason, God's reason in the new covenant instruction that women are not to speak in the assembly: for it is A SHAME for them to do so! Such was not based upon custom/cultural/societal norms; such is God's revealed truth on the matter. Such was not limited to Corinthian women; such is the instruction for women in the gospel age.

SOME THOTS FOLLOW….

SINGING IS "SPEAKING"…WOMEN CAN SING IN THE ASSEMBLY
May a woman sing (and therefore be involved in a sense of "~speaking~ to yourselves in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" without violating this passage? Certainly, for we find authority for that action in the inspired record (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16,17)! Just as Luke 16:18 must be understood in light of Matthew 19:9 and 5:32, so I Cor. 14:34,35 must be harmonized with other passages, as well.

TO WHOM WRITTEN?
I believe that ~all Corinthian women~ were the direct ones to whom Paul is referring in these verses, to include instruction to be obeyed by ~all women in other churches of the first century and now~ (See I Cor. 14:33b; I Cor. 4:17; 2 Tim. 2:2; Mt. 28:18-20). What Paul taught them, he would teach everywhere in every church and Paul taught Timothy that faithful men and women were to teach others also...just like what Jesus taught in the Great Commission...teaching them to observe ALL THINGS that I have commanded you..."

THE REASON "WHY" WOMEN ARE NOT TO SPEAK IS GIVEN
I believe that most who misunderstand this passage do not properly understand verse 35b..."…for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." No matter "who" the "your women" are...the reason that ALL WOMEN are not allowed to speak in church (virgins, non-virgins, spouses of prophets, spouses of non-prophets, widows) is the fact that God says that such is a SHAME.

I CORINTHIANS 11 and I CORINTHIANS 14
Brother Don wrote in his first post, "Some present I Corinthians 14:34, 35 in a way that manifestly contradicts what Paul taught in I Corinthians 11: 4-16 regarding the prophetesses and how they were to "pray or prophesy." One view is that after telling the prophetesses how to do what they were doing in public places in chapter eleven, Paul now decides to change his teaching and tell the prophetesses to be silent in the assembly. Some have introduced these two texts as an example of ambivalence and indecision. Others, based on I Corinthians 14: 34, 35 have concluded that public places such as the assembly were not included in the text of I Corinthians 11: 3-16. If this be the case, how could there have been the doing of the same thing and in the same circumstance that occasioned the need for the head covering enjoined by Paul in the case of the prophetesses (I Cor. 11: 4-16)? Could it be that I Corinthians 11: 4-16 and I Corinthians 14: 34, 35 are addressing entirely different people and circumstances? We shall attempt by careful exegesis to ascertain exactly what
Paul is and is not teaching when he penned I Corinthians 14: 34, 35."

Mark here:
The writing above by brother Don will serve as a particularly good starting point as we discuss our different views of this passage. I will withhold review of Don's first post now, for such is not the purpose of this first post of mine <g>. I do believe that we should keep the above paragraph written by our good brother Don in mind and deal with it sentence-by-sentence as we continue our study of this good topic.

Thanks for reading,
Mark J. Ward
The Religious Instructor
http://www.religiousinstructor.com
The Golden Isles church of Christ
http://www.religiousinstructor.com/church

(from MARS-List Digest 4013, March 20, 2003)

Subject: Re: I Corinthians 14:34,35
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:42:33 -0500
From: "Mark J. Ward" <markjward@darientel.net>
To: mars-list@mtsu.edu, dmartin5@concentric.net, jeffsmelser@ntgreek.net, markjward@darientel.net

Mark J. Ward here to brethren Don Martin and Jeff Smelser
(and the list):

CLARIFICATION ON MY FIRST POST...
Let me quickly insert (in my third post of the day) a clarification, lest both brethren and the listers misunderstand my actual position on the restrictions, as I understand them to be, on all women (then and now). When I hastened to post <g> to keep the discussion going and shortened the post <g>, I took out the following that is critical. Please accept my apologies. I hope this insertion/clarification is timely and ahead of brother Don's and brother Jeff's next. Thanks. PLEASE NOTE my clarification inside the three astericks (***) that follow.

VERSE 34
Paul writes:
"Let your women…" this is the Corinthian women in particular at the church of God at Corinth (1:2), but the instruction would extend to all women then and now (See vs 33b; Matthew 28:18-20; 2 Tim. 2:2; I Cor. 4:17).

"keep silence in the churches:…" means not to speak a word in the assembly (i.e. the church together in one place). Just like the tongue speaker who was in a situation without an interpreter was not to speak a word (see vs. 28), the woman is not to speak a word in the church. NOTE: this instruction is not applicable to the simultaneous Bible class arrangement, but when the "whole church be come together into one place" (vs. 19,23,26,28,33,34,35). ***[The teaching herein is that the woman is not to speak in such a way as to address the assembly, whether authoritatively or not. Thus, I EXCLUDE a mother, for example who whispers to her misbehaving child to "be quiet", from this instruction. But, if the woman "in the church" speaks in such a way, like to ask a question, or to give an announcement update for one who is sick, comment on a passage of scripture, OR another such address (when the whole church be come together into one place, as the church), she violates the instruction of the text.]***

Thanks again,
Mark

(from MARS-List Digest 4014, March 20, 2003)

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[Editor’s Note: This is one of the most in-depth, comprehensive studies between brethren on the issue of whether the women in the "b" part of verse 35 of I Corinthians 14:34,35 is "all women", including women today, or whether those women were only the "prophets wives". We hope all readers will continue to study all Bible topics with open minds, willing to conform to God's Truth. Thanks for reading! - Mark J. Ward markjward@yahoo.com ]

Email the Editor at markjward@yahoo.com