The Donahue - Morrison Debate
on "Once Saved, Always Saved?"
Patrick Donahues Fourth Affirmative
Steve
begins his third rebuttal by talking about french fries being the key issue. But I can better state the key issue this way: since Steve agrees genuine Christians still
sin, then it could be any sin, from murder, to rape, to homosexuality. Its hard to imagine, but once saved
always saved advocates believe it is possible for a truly born again
Christian to homosexually rape a little boy and then murder the boy to cover the crime,
and still be in a saved relationship with God the whole time he is committing the act. Yes, I would certainly call that cheap
grace. But it is not important what I
would call it. It only matters that God
contradicts it when He says that sin separates us from Him (Isaiah 59:2, Romans 6:23). The Bible makes it clear that unrepentant
homosexuals are lost (I Corinthians 6:9-11).
Steve
asserts that I believe in once-transformed-always-transformed, but nothing could be
further from the truth. The Bible states
clearly in Hebrews 3:12 that a brother in Christ can change his belief to unbelief and
depart from God. Read it for yourself. A believer doesnt suddenly lose his free
will. It is possible for him to choose to
forsake the Lord.
Joshua
6:2-21,24:13 proves beyond any doubt that having to meet conditions in order to receive a
blessing from God does not negate the fact that the blessing was unearned, given by grace
through faith. Whether you call those
conditions works or not makes no difference, because Ephesians 2:8-9 is discussing the
earning basis of our salvation, not whether or not our salvation is conditional (as James
2:24 is discussing).
Steve
briefly changed the subject to water baptism in his second article when he claimed the
fact that Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized proves that he was
saved without baptism. I proved Steve wrong
by bringing up an unsaved Saul receiving the Holy Spirit in I Samuel 19. Steves reply was to switch the subject back
to once-saved-always-saved without addressing my response to him on his water baptism
point. Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 22:16, and I
Peter 3:21 prove that water baptism is necessary to salvation. Please read these verses and believe what they
say. They are very clear.
Steves
response to II Peter 1:10 is inadequate. No
matter how you slice it and dice it, a command for us to make our calling and election
sure would imply that our election is not sure unless we make it so.
Steves
response to I Timothy 5:12 was Judgment on a believer does not mean loss of
salvation. But the Bible doesnt
just say the believers of I Timothy 5:12 would receive judgment; it says they would have
condemnation (the strongest word used in the Bible to describe someone who is
lost). Does the reader believe a person can
be both condemned and saved at the same time?
Steve
admits now that the crown in Revelation 2:10 refers to salvation, but says that
crown/salvation was never lost. Just taking
language at face value, if this verse says be thou faithful unto death and you will
be saved, that would mean that if a Christian does not remain faithful unto death,
they wont be saved. It is that simple
Steve.
Steves
Proof Texts
If
anyone can prove God will not allow His Ephesians 1:13-14 Holy Spirit seal to be broken by
the one sealed, then please do so. Otherwise
you are only assuming what you are supposed to be proving.
Jude 21 makes it clear that we have a part in the maintenance of
that seal. Jude 21 also refutes Steves
use of Romans 8:31-39. Nothing (except
ourselves, Jude 21) can separate us from the love of God.
And Romans 8:28-30 does nothing for Steves position. Justification happens to a person when they
initially become a Christian. The passage
says nothing about whether such a person can lose his justification.
Ephesians
1:4 agrees with my position that God hath chosen from the very beginning that people will
have to be holy and without blame before him in love to be part of the saved,
and therefore also refutes what I think is Steves point from Romans 9:22-23 and
Matthew 22:14. And Titus 1:2 proves my
position when it says Christians have hope of eternal life, showing it is
possible for a Christian to lose the eternal life he possesses. There is obviously no need to hope for
a result if that result is already 100% settled.
The
prevailing tactic of Steves responses to my proof texts has been to, in effect, deny
the inerrancy of the scriptures by saying a particular passage wasnt really talking
about brethren, even though brethren was specified by the passage. We can prove anything by the Bible if we are
allowed to disregard what the texts actually say.
But
I must keep this article short. The following
verses so clearly teach against once saved always saved - they speak for themselves. If we love God, we will be willing to accept what
they plainly say, instead of working to try to get around what they say.
Galatians
5:4
Christ
is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; YE ARE FALLEN
FROM GRACE.
Revelation
3:5
He
that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not BLOT OUT HIS
NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE
James
5:19-20
BRETHREN, if any of you do err from the
truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the
error of his way, shall SAVE A SOUL FROM DEATH, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
And through thy knowledge
shall the weak BROTHER PERISH, for whom Christ died?
II
Peter 2:20-22
For
if after they have ESCAPED the pollutions (defilements, ASV) of the world through the
knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and
overcome, the LATTER END IS WORSE with them than the beginning.
II
Peter 1:9-11
And hath forgotten that he was PURGED FROM HIS OLD SINS for IF ye do these things, ye shall never FALL.
Hebrews
3:12
Take
heed, BRETHREN lest there be in any of you an EVIL HEART OF UNBELIF, in DEPARTING FROM THE
LIVING GOD.
I
Corinthians 9:25-27 (ASV)
Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible
but I buffet
my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by
any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be REJECTED.
Conclusion (I can use extremes as well as Steve can)
Because I believe exactly what God says over
John Calvins system, Steve questions if I understand the heart of the
gospel. The very opposite is true. Anybody who would believe it is possible for a
true Christian to still be in a saved relationship with God even while he is having sex
with an animal, doesnt have a clue about what it means to make Jesus Lord of our
life (Luke 6:46). II Corinthians 5:10 reads
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may
receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or
bad. Revelation 20:12-13 says twice
that every man will be judged according to their works. These passages reflect precisely my position in
this debate.
--Patrick T. Donahue
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