Don Martin - Mark J. Ward Covering Discussion

The Don Martin - Mark J. Ward Discussion on

I Corinthians 11:1-16

Ward's Ninth Article

This is the next article Mark J. Ward writes under the Subject line: Re:I Corinthians 11:1-16...

Subject:
Re: I Corinthians 11:1-16
Date:
Sat, 01 Feb 2003 17:41:55 -0500
From:
"Mark J. Ward" <markjward@darientel.net>
To:
mars-list@mtsu.edu, dmartin5@concentric.net, markjward@darientel.net

Mark J. Ward here to Don Martin and the listers:

I will now turn to Question #4 asked of and replied to by my good
brother Don Martin:

QUESTION #4: Don, since you state that the nouns and pronouns in verse
7 can have specific application AND general application, why can't you
allow the same thing for the definitions of "praying or prophesying" in
verses 4, 5?

QUESTION #4 comes from the qualified YES, that Don gave in answering my
Question #3.

******************
QUESTION 3: Don, in light of your view on the "every man and "every
woman" of verses 4,5 in our text really being limited to only inspired
prophets and prophetesses, do you also teach and believe that when Paul
taught, "For a MAN indeed ought not to cover HIS (italicized in KJV)
head, forasmuch as HE is the image and glory of God: but the WOMAN is
the glory of the MAN",

in verse 7,

...that the true sense of the verse would be, "For a INSPIRED ONLY
PROPHET indeed ought not to cover THE INSPIRED ONLY PROPHET'S
(italicized <g>) head forasmuch as THE INSPIRED ONLY PROPHET is the
image and glory of God: but the INSPIRED ONLY PROPHETESS is the glory of
the INSPIRED ONLY PROPHET"?
********************
Don had given an answer, I had not (for sure) understood it...I asked
for clarification. He seemed to allow BOTH specific AND general
application to men/women in the text allowing for uninspired and
inspired application <g>. Those studying along can certainly see the
implication here, given Don's excluding those who were UNINSPIRED from
some of the earlier verses in the text (according to his spiritual gifts
view). In verse 7 he will (I think) NOT RESTRICT, but
INCLUDE....inspired AND uninspired men/women. Please read on.

Then, I had asked Don, "My question was rather long, but I want to know,
specific to ~each time~ the words "man", "his", "he", & "woman" are used
in verse 7, in particular, of I Cor. 11, if they are ONLY referring to
either "an inspired only PROPHET" or "an inspired only PROPHETESS"?
Thanks." (from MARS-LIST Digest 3837, January 25, 2003).

Don had responded to that:
Mark, I answered your question as clearly as I am capable. Yes, "for a
man" of I Corinthians 11: 7 (gar men aner) is man in general but in
particular,
the praying or prophesying man under consideration in the context. The
"but the woman" (de he gune) is the woman in general but, in the
expression (in view of the context), would be the praying or prophesying
woman in particular (as with the man). Both what is said of the man and
woman in
particular (in the context of I Corinthians 11) is true in general (the
image and glory part), but is also true in the circumstances to which
Paul is applying these timeless and universal truths. I see no impetus
for saying that "...being in the image and glory" and "...the glory of
man" are indigenous to the praying or prophesying man or woman. I know
some do make this mistake. (from MARS-List 3838, January 25, 2003)

Mark replies:
IF you truly believe that a man (in general, but in particular an
inspired prophet) ought NOT to cover his head (verse 7), then you SHOULD
BELIEVE that the passage includes instruction to the uninspired men,
Don. Please go up and re-read your answer!!! What is required of "every
man" at times of "praying or prophesying", the opposite is required of
"every woman"! Similarly, in this verse brother Don, IF you truly
believe that the woman (in verse 7 is the woman in general, but in
particular an inspired woman) then you SHOULD BELIEVE that the passage
includes instruction to the uninspired ladies being covered during
praying or prophesying). This is critical, in my estimation, to the
downfall of your position and to our coming to agreement on the text, as
God would desire. Your "qualified yes" betrayeth you!

Don then answers (from his last post):

Mark, I know that when we affirm and are contending for a point of
doctrine that we can be slow to see a counter-point. However, I do not
see what you mention in your question four as being the case. (from
MARS-List 3847, January 29, 2003)

Mark here:
Let us look at I Corinthians 11:7 and put "multiple choice" before Don,
to allow him to be clear in letting me know his understanding on verse 7
(at the basis of Question 4).

Don, where are you on each of the nouns/pronouns below? (as I am
unsure):

1. For a ~MAN~

a. every man (inspired or uninspired)
b. inspired ONLY prophet
c. uninspired ONLY prophet
d. none of the above (IF this, please explain <g>).

2. .....indeed ought not to cover ~HIS ~

a. every man (inspired or uninspired)
b. inspired ONLY prophet
c. uninspired ONLY prophet
d. none of the above (IF this, please explain <g>).

3. head, forasmuch as ~HE~

a. every man (inspired or uninspired)
b. inspired ONLY prophet
c. uninspired ONLY prophet
d. none of the above (IF this, please explain <g>).

4. is the image and glory of God: but the ~WOMAN~

a. every woman (inspired or uninspired)
b. inspired ONLY prophetesses
c. uninspired ONLY prophetesses
d. none of the above (IF this, please explain <g>).

5. is the glory of the ~MAN~.

a. every man (inspired or uninspired)
b. inspired ONLY prophet
c. uninspired ONLY prophet
d. none of the above (IF this, please explain <g>).

It was my earlier understanding that you would LIMIT the references to
"man", & "his", in the early part of the verse to the "B" answer
(inspired ONLY prophet), and I was VERY INTERESTED to see what you would
do with the "HE" in the middle of the verse <g>, but believed that in
the latter part of the verse (the last "woman" and "man") that you would
get more general and take the "A" answer which would certainly include
the prophets/prophetesses, as you define them, at the church of God at
Corinth (all in verse 7, now, brother Don). That would have your answers
as being:

(Mark first thot this is how Don would answer Question #3)
1. For a ~MAN~ = b. inspired ONLY prophet
2. .....indeed ought not to cover ~HIS ~ = b. inspired ONLY prophet
3. head, forasmuch as ~HE~ = (What does Don believe here?)
4. is the image and glory of God: but the ~WOMAN~ = a. every woman
(inspired or uninspired)
5. is the glory of the ~MAN~. = a. every man (inspired or uninspired)

But now, Mark thinks Don really believes:
1. For a ~MAN~ = a. every man (inspired or uninspired)
2. .....indeed ought not to cover ~HIS ~ = a. every man (inspired or
uninspired)
3. head, forasmuch as ~HE~ = a. every man (inspired or uninspired)
4. is the image and glory of God: but the ~WOMAN~ = a. every woman
(inspired or uninspired)
5. is the glory of the ~MAN~. = a. every man (inspired or uninspired)

This would be GREAT (if your answers were all "A"s), but would hurt your
present position, just like the argumentation you provided on Acts 20:7
hurts your position on I Cor. 11.

Your qualified YES is still a bit confusing, since I had put "...that
the true sense of the verse would be, "For a INSPIRED ONLY PROPHET
indeed ought not to cover THE INSPIRED ONLY PROPHET'S (italicized <g>)
head forasmuch as THE INSPIRED ONLY PROPHET is the image and glory of
God: but the INSPIRED ONLY PROPHETESS is the glory of the INSPIRED ONLY
PROPHET"?" at the end of Question #3. To say YES to the question
would EXCLUDE the uninspired man/woman, yet your WORDS indicated an
INCLUSIVE APPROACH to include the uninspired man/woman, in GENERAL,
along WITH the inspired man/woman!!!

What say ye Don? I will answer/respond to a few other matters that Don
wrote in response to Q4, but ask kindly, with love (and in the interest
of properly understanding Don's answer before we proceed to Question #5)
that he clarify his answer. Thanks, brother Don!

Don also wrote:
To attempt to assign the natural meaning to "praying or prophesying" is
to ignore both the syntax, immediate context, and remote contexts
associated with men and women.

Mark answers, in brief:
We have previously labored to point out to our good brother Don and the
readership of these posts that the following items are IN the context of
I Corinthians and don't lend themselves to Don's assumptive conclusions
on this text:

- But I would have YOU know (the entire church of God at Corinth,
containing uninspired and inspired women and men who prayed, and others,
including us per I Cor. 4:17)
- EVERY MAN/THE WOMAN in verse 3
- EVERY MAN/EVERY WOMAN in verses 4,5
- VERSE 7 (can't switch exclusive definitions back and forth, is
inclusive of every man and the/every woman)
- all ~prayed~ in the church at Corinth (uninspired AND inspired) and as
such would be needing to obey the instruction
- the reasons that God gave were no more important for an inspired
man/woman to obey than an uninspired man/woman to obey.

Don wrote:
I have said that the common meaning for "prophesying" is to speak with
divine assistance. I have also conceded that the natural meaning of
"praying" generally considered is uninspired. However, I have tried to
show that in view of the association of "praying" with "prophesying" in
I Corinthians 11: 4, 5, the context, and the fact that prayer could also
be inspired, that the "praying" under consideration also had miraculous
impetus (cp. I Cor. 14: 15).

Mark here:
We have labored this point, as well. We ask Don and the readership,
however, to notice that Don not only MERELY believes (as written above)
" that prayer ~could also be~ (emp mine, mjw) inspired", he teaches us
that ~IT IS ONLY INSPIRED PRAYER~ in this text!!! This is at the heart
of his assumptive, reductive, conclusion wherein we disagree!!! Don, I
fear that you are reducing again. Don, how do you KNOW it is ONLY
INSPIRED/MIRACULOUS and how (teach us please) can we BE SURE???

I believe and teach that inspired AND uninspired folks would need to
obey I Cor. 11, since it was they to whom the instruction was given,
they FIT the "every man" and "every woman" of the text, prophesying CAN
BE uninspired and praying is NORMALLY uninspired, and the God-given
reasons were just as important for inspired folks to follow the
instruction as for uninspired folks. Similarly, the uninspired and
inspired brethren elsewhere (i.e. other than at Corinth, including us)
per I Cor. 4:17, 2 Tim. 2:2, and other related passages would need to
obey the instruction, as well. Don has failed to teach us wherein this
would do injustice to the text. Just like he failed to answer us
concerning "teachers of good things" could be inspired & uninspired
teachers and "prophet without honor in his own country" could be
inspired & uninspired prophets and do no injustice to the intended
meaning of the text. Also, Don has failed to teach us why it would be
more important for an inspired woman to show proper respect for headship
while praying THAN FOR an uninspired woman. It ain't axiomatic. <g> What
say ye, brother Don?

Don continues:
Mark, it is plain that we are at an impasse regarding your and my views
of the subjects of I Corinthians 11: 3-16 and the special teaching (not
found anywhere else) regarding the covering. I can appreciate your
frustration in trying to get me to agree that the praying in the setting
can be simply natural and that the "prophesying" can be simple
uninspired teaching. Nonetheless, based on the foregoing stated reasons,
I must view the text as special and the covering as not binding on all
women today.

Mark lovingly responds,
Don't give up on me, Don and I won't on you <g>...tho' we will allow for
digestion time on this subject and have future study, Lord willing.
There are other subjects, as well, wherein we disagree that I look
forward to possibly engaging you on.

Don concludes:
I look forward to Mark's question number five and then to posing some
questions for Mark to answer (up to five in number). Since we have
exhausted the subjects of I Corinthians 11: 3-16, I would like to see
Mark move on to question number five.

Mark quotes Lee Corso (a la ESPN's SportsCenter):
"Not so fast my friend", let's get your clarification on the multiple
choice above and I will try my best to respond briefly <g> to that in
light of Question #4. I don't want to misrepresent you, my good brother.
Then, we'll move on, Lord willing, to more of our good study.

Thanks, Don, for your interest in me, in truth and for your continued
good spirit in this Bible study/discussion.

In Christian love,
Mark J. Ward
The Religious Instructor
http://www.religiousinstructor.com
The Golden Isles church of Christ
http://www.religiousinstructor.com/church

(From MARS-List Digest 3857, February 1, 2003

CLICK HERE TO GO TO THE NEXT ARTICLE

CLICK HERE TO GO BACK TO THE TABLE OF CONTENTS FOR THIS STUDY

[Editor’s Note: This is one of the most in-depth, comprehensive studies between two brethren on the issue of whether "the spiritual gifts view" of I Corinthians 11:1-16 is true, or whether God requires women today to cover their heads with an artifical covering whenever they pray. We hope all readers will continue to study all Bible topics with open minds, willing to conform to God's Truth. Thanks for reading! - Mark J. Ward markjward@yahoo.com ]

Email the Editor at markjward@yahoo.com