Don Martin - Mark J. Ward Covering Discussion

The Don Martin - Mark J. Ward Discussion on

I Corinthians 11:1-16

Ward's Second Article

This is the next article Mark J. Ward writes under the Subject line: I Corinthians 11:1-16...

Subject:
I Cor. 11:1-16
Date:
Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:39:50 -0500
From:
"Mark J. Ward" <markjward@darientel.net>
To:
mars-list@mtsu.edu, dmartin5@concentric.net, markjward@darientel.ne

Mark J. Ward, here to Don Martin and the list:

My sincere thanks to Don for his kindnesses me-ward in this study. I
believe, as does he, that this will be a good study. We disagree and
will contend and press our points, testing the strength of each other's
beliefs (this is good).

As I mentioned in a previous post, I believe that Don is one of the top
three men to advocate the "spiritual gifts view" of I Cor. 11:1-16 that
I know of. If anyone is skilled in presenting that view, it would be
Don. Please do not take this "short answer" to indicate any lack of
respect for the volume of information Don gave in his earlier
post...just that this argumentation, in my estimation, answers the
points Don made. Please refer me to any point you think is valid that I
overlooked as we continue. I will certainly digest the information and
continue to reflect and study its merits, even in future months after
this exchange passes. I hope this will be the case with all of us (on
various subjects of disagreement).

In answering my question concerning why Don believes "praying" and
"pray" in the text of I Cor. 11:1-16 is miraculous ONLY prayer, Don (in
part wrote),

" In short, I believe and teach that the "praying" and "prophesying" of
I
Corinthians 11: 3-16 are miraculous in origin, nature, and design
because of
the basic and ordinary meaning of "prophecy" and the connection of
"praying"
with "prophesying," and also their use in the context of I Corinthians
11,
as well as the general climate of the text, context, and remote contexts

(chapters twelve and fourteen). Allow me to simplify this:"

Please notice that Don reasons from the word "prophesying" in I Cor. 11
toward the word "praying" (in determining the meaning of PRAYING), even
though praying is:

(1) first in order in the verse, and
(2) separated by the word "OR" from "prophesying" in the text.

These are significant with regards to properly ascertaining the meaning
of the words. I believe in immediate and remote context as well. I
believe in using the ordinary meaning (i.e. the primary meaning) of
words unless something in the texts/contexts DEMAND otherwise. I believe
Don has done a wonderful job of telling us "why" HE believes what he
does, but falls short of proper interpretation in the two areas noted
above.

Don ~connects~ where the Holy Spirit ~separates~. Please notice (no
offense intended brother Don) the following passages followed by abuses
of the passages:
1. "16 He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned."
(Mk. 16:16)
He that believes OR is baptized shall be saved. (abuse of Mk. 16:16)
2. "38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, AND be baptized every one of
you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye
shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
Repent OR be baptized for the remission of your sins. (abuse of Acts
2:38)

We can all see the "difference" in separating two things by the word
"or" and joining/connecting two things by the word "and". This can
result in a difference of truth and error. Such is similar, but not
identical, in Don's reasoning with regard to his belief/assertion that
"praying" is "connected" with "prophesying" in I Cor. 11.

Also, I don't think brother Don believes in either "inspired/miraculous
~eating~" in Amos 7:12 or "inspired/miraculous ~giving~" in Romans
12:6-8 (even tho they are in close proximity, my words not Don's, to
inspired activity in the context). Please note:

[1] Amos 7:12, "12 Also Amaziah said unto Amos, O thou seer, go, flee
thee away
into the land of Judah, and there EAT bread, AND PROPHESY there:"

[2] Rom 12:6-8, " 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace
that is given to
us, whether PROPHECY, let us PROPHESY according to the proportion of
faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on
teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that GIVETH, let him do it
with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy,
with cheerfulness."

Don, why didn't you start with the ~ordinary meaning~ of "praying" and
"pray" (WHICH IS UNINSPIRED) and go toward "prophesying" in order to
determine the meaning of the words in I Cor. 11 with your contextual
thought processes ...(since you think they are connected)? In other
words, why did you (believing two things are connected), run to
prophesying first rather than to praying first? Thanks.

Don also wrote:
"To attempt to reduce prophesying and praying in the
text of I Corinthians 11: 1-16 to ordinary and uninspired teaching and
prayer is to totally ignore and abuse the setting, the occasion, and the

people under consideration. In addition to unjustifiably limiting
praying
and prophesying, to contend that a woman today in the assembly must
be "covered," is to promote an anachronism (more later)."

Mark responds in love:
I am not contending for "reducing" prophesying to ordinary and
uninspired teaching ONLY...I am saying let ALL prophesying and ALL
praying be INCLUDED. Do you exclude Thayer's "d" definition of the word
used for "prophesying" in I Cor. 11, "...to teach..." (pg. 553)? Why
EXCLUDE definitions when you can allow ALL praying and ALL prophesying
to be included in Paul's instruction?

I believe that there are verses wherein prophesying (and its forms)
would mean:
1. an inspired speaker ONLY,
2. an uninspired speaker ONLY,
3. a speaker, whether inspired or uninspired, who would be teaching
truths that only could be known by divine revelation (think about this
one, please).

Titus 1:12 is an example of a prophet (here's a use of the word, not a
pseudo/false prophet) that spoke truth, but was uninspired. "12 One of
themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway
liars, evil beasts, slow bellies."

Don is forcing a definition on the word "prophesying" that is not
unavoidable (why are we talking about "prophesying" when the question
was on "praying" and the words are separated by the word "or" in the
inspired text??? <BIG GRIN HERE>)... given (a) the immediate context,
and (b) the remote context, and (c) the definitions of the word as used
in the New Testament~! Similarly, Don is forcing a definition on the
word "praying" for the reasons noted in his two posts most recent and
examined in this post, that is not unavoidable..and even a secondary
meaning of the word! Don, how can we BE SURE? How are you SURE (i.e.
miraculous praying ONLY)?

In addition to reading the article at Don Martin's website on this
subject, please check out the information (especially specific to
~"praying~ defined and ~prophesying, inspired only???~ in the following
three pieces at my website:

http://www.religiousinstructor.com/mar02/cover.html
http://www.religiousinstructor.com/cover/command.html (pgs 3-17)
http://www.religiousinstructor.com/cover/wreply.html (pgs 5-14 not
completed, but good material relative to this topic already there,
patience please <g>)

Don knows that he must prove that (1) "praying" in I Cor. 11 is
miraculous ONLY, and that (2) "prophesying" in I Cor. 11 is inspired
speakers ONLY to sustain his present position. Don, please tell us how
you KNOW this is the case. I believe you have previously done an
admirable job in letting us know HOW you got to believe what you do
about praying (i.e. going to the definition of prophesying and uses of
prophesying, assuming it is connected to praying, then assuming this is
miraculous praying ONLY, etc). Thanks.

This is a good study. I ask all (including Don and myself): Please refer
to Don's previous posts (two most recent) and read them again (for good
comprehension). Then, please re-read this and digest all the arguments
in light of their soundness or weakness. I look forward to reading Don's
response.

I have written the info above with love in my heart for Don Martin, the
readership of this list, my soul, as well as my interest in truth and
righteousness.

Oh, BTW, Question 2. Don, do you presently believe that prophetesses
were prophesying or praying (miraculous ONLY in both cases) in the
church assembly at Corinth with God's blessings and were the ONLY women
being instructed to be covered (meaning that non-prophetesses did NOT
have to cover their heads when praying with either a prophet or a
prophetess)? Thanks. [Please give answer from specific revelation or
necessary inference, I am not asking if this is a possibility ~per se~.
I know you are one to be careful with God's Word and what is
SAID/REVEALED and I am not trying to get you to teach anything you don't
know/believe to be true. Thanks]

God bless us all.

In Christian love,
Mark J. Ward
The Religious Instructor
http://www.religiousinstructor.com
The Golden Isles church of Christ
http://www.religiousinstructor.com/church

(from MARS-List 3820, January 21, 2003)

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[Editor’s Note: This is one of the most in-depth, comprehensive studies between two brethren on the issue of whether "the spiritual gifts view" of I Corinthians 11:1-16 is true, or whether God requires women today to cover their heads with an artifical covering whenever they pray. We hope all readers will continue to study all Bible topics with open minds, willing to conform to God's Truth. Thanks for reading! - Mark J. Ward markjward@yahoo.com ]

Email the Editor at markjward@yahoo.com