Don Martin - Mark J. Ward Covering Discussion

The Don Martin - Mark J. Ward Discussion on

I Corinthians 11:1-16

Martin's 15th

This is the next (in sequence) post(s) Don Martin writes under the Subject line: Re:I Corinthians 11:1-16...

Subject:
Re: I Corinthians 11: 1-16
Date:
Sat, 22 Feb 2003 18:24:08 -0700
From:
"Don Martin" <dmartin5@concentric.net>
To:
<mars-list@frank.mtsu.edu>

Don Martin to the list:

I trust you have already read Mark Ward's posts today and his answer to my
question number one. Mark is very able and is doing a good job in
presenting the view that binds a head covering on "every woman praying or
prophesying" today. I have three responsive posts ready, however, I think
I will hold off publishing them to ML until Sunday night or Monday morning.
I have learned that many are busy on the weekends and some posts go
unread. I also want you to have adequate time to read Mark's posts.

I am very much enjoying this exchange because I sincerely believe that it is
providing all who are interested in the covering issue of I Corinthians 11
the opportunity to see this matter discussed without rancor and personality
assaults. I feel dirty when I am in an exchange where my opponent resorts
to motive assignment or personality attacks in an effort to booster his
position. Mark has not done this because he has not needed to. Mark knows
his position and is capably presenting it. As I have said before, I always
look for a person who differs with me relative to a given subject to have
ability and self-control. Mark has exhibited these traits and I expect
nothing but the same out of him in the remainder of our posts.

I know this exchange is of interest to ML members. I know that it is
especially of interest to some because of the private emails. Mark has also
received private emails that indicate this exchange is being followed with
great interest. I thank Mark for his time, interest in me and others, and
his efforts.

Cordially,
Don Martin dmartin5@concentric.net

Check out our Web sites: http://www.bibletruths.net
Ask a question and receive a Bible answer http://www.biblequestions.org
Simply click on the URL to visit these sites. You may print out
the material for teaching purposes, see the copyright
provision on the home page of Bible Truths.

(from MARS-List Digest 3928, Feb. 22, 2003)

Subject:
Re: I Corinthians 11: 1-16
Date:
Mon, 24 Feb 2003 07:21:03 -0700
From:
"Don Martin" <dmartin5@concentric.net>
To:
<mars-list@frank.mtsu.edu>

Don Martin to Mark Ward and the list (post one of three):

In our exchange on I Corinthians 11: 1-16, Mark has submitted five questions
for me to answer and I have addressed them. In this process, there have
been many other related questions, points made, and efforts to refute each
other's position. The position held by Mark is that the covering of I
Corinthians 11: 3-16 is binding on all women today. I have maintained
that the covering was only binding on "every woman praying or prophesying"
and that the covering was indigenous to those people, having no meaning
today in America. Before Mark answered my question number one, Mark
did have some additional comments on the prophetess Anna. I shall briefly
reply and then concentrate on Mark's answer to my first question.

Again, I appreciate the fine spirit that Mark manifests and the interest a
number of you on this Internet list have in the subject of the covering.

Mark wrote:

Finally, Don continues to assume and assert that ladies like Anna who were
inspired prophetesses exercised dominion over men, which is not taught in
scripture! Don assumes something (again) that is not unavoidably taught from
the text. We pointed out that IF Anna taught EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY
INDIVIDUAL in Jerusalem that sought redemption, that he still did not have
a passage that taught she did so, as he asserts, publicly in such a way as
to include the sense of exercising dominion over mixed audiences, or
over men.

Don comments:

It is imperative that Mark deny the public role of the prophetesses
mentioned in the Bible, women such as Miriam; Deborah; Huldah; and Anna
(Ex. 15: 20, 21; Jud. 4: 4-10; 2 Kgs. 22: 14-20; Lk. 2: 36-38). It is
evident that Mark cannot even imagine that these prophetesses or women who
prophesied (such as those in I Corinthians 11: 3-16) taught audiences that
included men. These women were the exception (see I Tim. 2: 12). As we
have shown, the gift of prophesy was given to be used. I have contended
thus:

(1). Those who had the gift of prophecy (both men and women), were to edify
the church with their gift (I Cor. 14: 3, 5, 12, 23, 24, 26-31).

(2). The church at Corinth was comprised of both male and female members (I
Cor. 14: 34, 35; 11: 4, 5).

(3). Hence, both prophets and prophetesses were publicly used to teach the
church and foretell by the impetus of the Holy Spirit.

In the case of Anna the prophetess I quoted the following text:

"36: And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the
tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven
years from her virginity;
37: And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed
not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
38: And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and
spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem" (Lk. 2).

Please observe three things:

(1). Anna was a "prophetess" (vs. 36).
(2). She departed not from the temple (vs. 37, probably also resided there).
(3). Anna "spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem"
(vs. 38).

Mark's objection has been:

The ladies could prophesy YES; but, did they necessarily do so in violation
to the applicable laws (in whatever law age they were living in) concerning
NOT exercising dominion/authority over men? No way!....

Mark is correct that men have been the religious leaders throughout the
Bible. Mark is also right when he points out that women today are not to
assume the role of public teacher in a religious setting involving men (I
Tim. 2: 12). However, my friend Mark errs relative to the prophetess of the
Bible, she was the exception. I accept this without any difficulty because
I think I understand the gift of prophesy and its utility (I Cor. 12: 10).
Because the prophetesses at Corinth were doing the same thing as the
prophets, the prophetesses in order to avoid headship issues and violations
were to be veiled, this was especially true in view of the meaning of the
covering to those people at that time (I Cor. 11: 3-16). Mark just cannot
accept the obvious meaning of Luke 2: 36-38 regarding Anna teaching
in the temple (public place) and the fact that she "spake of him to all them
that looked for redemption in Jerusalem" (Lk. 2: 38).

Hear Mark:

Let me give an example of how Anna could teach "all" who sought redemption
in Jerusalem (in the temple) and not exercise authority over men. A woman
today can be in the church's building, between or after "services" and be
in the foyer at the back of the building, for example, be teaching men
(but not exercising dominion over them) and be involved in "edifying the
church" without ever having to exercise dominion over men and without
ever having to "publicly address a mixed assembly of men and women" in
the church. Anna, could teach in the temple area and be an inspired
prophetess, teaching men, without ever exercising dominion over men in
a public setting (tho the setting per se was public).

Don comments:

The above statement is not characteristic of my intelligent friend Mark Ward
but of a man who has gone too far and has embraced an extreme position. One
extreme leads to another. The simple fact of the matter is:

"36: And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the
tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven
years from her virginity;
37: And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed
not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
38: And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and
spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem" (Lk. 2).

I accept the fact of the prophetesses and what she did, Mark cannot.
Again, this select group of women were special and not ordinary. They had
the gift of prophesy and they publicly used it. In the case of I
Corinthians 11: 3-16, these prophetesses were doing precisely the same thing
that the prophets were doing and in the same exact circumstance. This was
the reason for the binding of the covering on these prophetesses.

Please see post two

(from MARS-List Digest 3933, Feb. 24, 2003)

Subject:
Re: I Corinthians 11: 1-16
Date:
Mon, 24 Feb 2003 07:21:47 -0700
From:
"Don Martin" <dmartin5@concentric.net>
To:
<mars-list@frank.mtsu.edu>

Don Martin to Mark Ward and the list (post two of three):

If binding on all women today, the covering matter is important and
necessary to salvation. I have submitted my question one to Mark and Mark
replied as following:

Now to Don's Question #1:
Question one:

In what circumstance were the praying or prophesying women at Corinth to
have their head covered:

A. When they were publicly (before or in the presence of others) praying or
prophesying?
B. When they were in private (totally alone, no one else present)?
C. When they were in the presence of a man?
D. When they were in the presence of a woman (no man present)?
E. When they had a role in teaching a man?
F. During a Bible class at home (their families, including their husband)?
G. During a Bible class at home with no man, not even their husband,
present?
H. During a Bible class in the church building (men present)?
I. During the preaching in the assembly (mixed audience and male
preacher)?
J. During the preaching in the assembly with no man present?
K. During public prayer offered by another in the assembly (male leading
the prayer)?

Mark here:
The Bible teaches, "Every man praying or prophesying, having his head
covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or
prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is
even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let
her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven,
let her be covered." (I Cor. 11: 4-6).

Brother Don asks a multiple choice question (which is NOT all-inclusive of
all situations, which is fine) concerning whether or not I believe the Bible
teaches that a woman AT CORINTH (in the wording of his Question One) should
cover her head at various times. Let me give the short answer in this para
and then address his A-K individually afterwards. Don has been good to try
to answer, in full, most of the questions I asked him. I want to do the same
in the spirit of good Bible study. The Bibles teaches, whether in public or
in private, whether in the company of another human being or not, whenever
and wherever a woman is engaged in praying or prophesying she would
need to be covered.

Don comments:

Mark comes forth in his usual straightforward style and answers my question.
It is evident from the way Mark addresses the question that Mark is honest
and is engaging thus far in this exchange in sincerity. Please consider
again his answer:

"The Bibles teaches, whether in public or in private, whether in the company
of another human being or not, whenever and wherever a woman is engaged in
praying or prophesying she would need to be covered."

Mark's answer resembles an answer to a similar question that I provided.
Notice both the similarity and the dissimilarity. I wrote:

" I repeat that anytime and every time these special men and women were
'praying or prophesying,' the women had to be covered and the men
uncovered."

However, I did not stop with the simple above answer, but I went on to
provide the full answer that I believe the context and milieu of I
Corinthians 11: 3-16 require.

I wrote:

"Mark, my friend, you continue to fail to see the basic point: These
prophets and prophetesses were doing the same thing and in the same
circumstance. This is why the covering was required. The truly private
circumstance (a woman 'praying or prophesying' alone) is not being
considered in the text. Besides, why would a Spirit led woman be prophesying
alone? As we have seen, the point of prophesying was to edify the church (I
Cor. 14: 12, etc.). Even if the '"praying' were uninspired, the context is
still public, placing these women and men in a situation of doing the same
thing and obviously at the same time."

I stress this aspect because this is one of the basic areas in which I
believe Mark errs, Mark does not grasp the setting of the "every woman..."
and "every man praying or prophesying" (I Cor. 11: 4, 5).

Concluded in post three

(from MARS-List Digest 3933, Feb. 24, 2003)

Subject:
Re: I Corinthians 11: 1-16
Date:
Mon, 24 Feb 2003 07:22:24 -0700
From:
"Don Martin" <dmartin5@concentric.net>
To:
<mars-list@frank.mtsu.edu>

Don Martin to Mark Ward and the list (post three of three):

Notice Mark's mistakes:

(1). First, Mark applies the covering to all women then and now.

(2). To make such a universal application and demand, Mark has to detach
"praying" from the commonly understood miraculous act of prophesying and
render "praying" totally natural, in spite of its association with
"prophesying" and the fact of inspired prayer (I Cor. 14: 15). Mark then
has to have "praying" understood as a male leading public prayer and a woman
in the audience simply following, when applied to the assembly. The
"prophesying" has to be reduced, in order to be immediately applicable
today, to uninspired teaching.

(3). Mark must totally ignore the apparent situation of the prophets and
prophetesses (women who prophesied) at Corinth doing precisely the same
thing. Since the gift of prophesy was meant to be publicly used, there was
a real danger of insubordination of headship, the headship announced in
verse three. Again, the activity of the text was not that which was done in
total privacy, but activity in which these special women could possibly
violate their subjugation to their male counter-parts.

I have no doubt that Mark is binding the veil on women today while they are
in a circumstance that provides no threat or challenge at all to headship.
Notice Mark's response to my probing "D" to my question number one:

D. When they were in the presence of a woman (no man present)?

Mark here:
Yes, since they would be engaging in "praying or prophesying" and that
is "when" God said for the woman to cover in I Cor.11: 1-16.

Don further comments:

Keep in mind that the whole reason for the covering on these prophetesses
was the recognition of headship in what they were doing, "praying or
prophesying" (I Cor. 11: 4, 5, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15). This recognition was to
be shown in view of the proximity of the prophets, the understood action of
the text requires such an understanding. Yet, Mark is even binding the
covering on all women just in the presence of women, no males present.
Hence, a group of women meeting together in the total absence of any male
must have on a head covering, according to Mark. Mark is now binding
more that he has before. Earlier I wrote:

"As I have repeatedly said, the covering was not ever bound BEFORE I
Corinthians 11: 3-16, not even on prophetesses, is not bound on all women IN
the milieu of I Corinthians 11: 3-16, and is never bound AFTER I Corinthians
11. The subjects and circumstances along with the meaning of the covering to
those people all comprise an unusual and exceptional situation, not
duplicated in any usual circumstances and teaching."

Notice Mark's reply to the "G" part of my question:

G. During a Bible class at home with no man, not even their husband,
present?

Mark here:
Yes, whenever they would engage in "praying or prophesying" cause that
is "when" God said for the woman to cover in I Cor.11: 1-16.

Don comments:

Mark binds the covering on the woman teaching a Bible class in her house
with no man present. Therefore, according to Mark, a mother would have to
put on a veil in order and preparatory to teaching her children. However,
this is not all Mark affirmed as to WHEN all women today must have on the
covering.

Hear Mark regarding "B" of my question:

B. When they were in private (totally alone, no one else present)?

Mark here:
Yes, since they would be engaging in "praying or prophesying" and that
is "when" God said for the woman to cover in I Cor.11: 1-16.

I can see a man who believes the covering is binding on all women today
maintaining its placement when men are present. However, to demand the
covering in the mist of only women, children, and then in total privacy, I
think clearly demonstrates a total lack of understanding of I Corinthians
11: 3-16.

I shall now wait for Mark to comment on my responsive posts to his answer to
my question one. Mark is now under pressure, but I anticipate that he will
maintain the good composure that has been characteristic of his manner from
the onset. I view Mark to be honest and want the truth. Therefore, I will
not be surprised if Mark comes back and says that he has been wrong to bind
the covering on all women today, even in the circumstance of total privacy
while "praying or prophesying" in their closet (Matt. 6: 6). I encourage
you tolook for Mark's posts and carefully read and consider what he has
to say.

Cordially,
Don Martin dmartin5@concentric.net

Check out our Web sites: http://www.bibletruths.net
Ask a question and receive a Bible answer http://www.biblequestions.org
Simply click on the URL to visit these sites. You may print out
the material for teaching purposes, see the copyright
provision on the home page of Bible Truths.

(from MARS-List Digest 3933, Feb. 24, 2003)

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[Editor’s Note: This is one of the most in-depth, comprehensive studies between two brethren on the issue of whether "the spiritual gifts view" of I Corinthians 11:1-16 is true, or whether God requires women today to cover their heads with an artifical covering whenever they pray. We hope all readers will continue to study all Bible topics with open minds, willing to conform to God's Truth. Thanks for reading! - Mark J. Ward markjward@yahoo.com ]

Email the Editor at markjward@yahoo.com