The Don Martin - Mark J. Ward Discussion on

I Corinthians 11:1-16


Background and Introduction

to this Bible Study


The following articles are a Bible discussion that brethren Don Martin and Mark J. Ward had concerning the proper understanding of I Corinthians 11:1-16. The articles on this particular page are the exchange leading up to the asking of 5 Questions (of each other) on the passage. Also, please look for links to a similar study involving the proper understanding surrounding the meaning of I Corinthians 14:34,35 and whether such is applicable today by these two men. Both men hold each other in high regard and have a tremendous respect for the Scriptures. It is hoped that those who read this exchange will do so with open Bibles, open minds and with a desire to know and follow God's Will. That would be the desire of both men who participated in this study.

Subject:
Re: Women Teachers
Date:
Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:09:39 -0500
From:
"Mark J. Ward" <markjward@darientel.net>
To:
mars-list@mtsu.edu, markjward@darientel.net




Mark J. Ward, here, jumping in on I Cor. 14:34,35, I Tim. 2 & women
teachers:

With all due respect to other good Bible teachers on this list, I Cor.
14:34,35 applies to the assembly of the local church today (but NOT the
simultaneous bible class arrangement) ...when the whole church be come
together into one place...

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not
permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under
obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at
home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

For the sake of argument only, let's grant (for a moment <g>) that "your
women" = the prophets' wives ONLY..

34 Let your women (prophets' wives) keep silence in the churches: for it
is not
permitted unto them (prophets' wives) to speak; but they (prophets'
wives) are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they (prophets' wives) will learn any thing, let them
(prophets' wives) ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for
women (ALL WOMEN) to speak in the church.

The inspired "reason" Paul gives that teaches "why" God says "your
women" are to keep silence in the churches is given in the "b" part of
verse 35... "for it is a shame for women to speak in the church".

You can read a good article on this topic at:
http://www.religiousinstructor.com/may00/icor14.html

Please notice particularly the paras on "The Prophets Wives".

and I will be posting a debate on the matter of whether or not I Tim.
2:11-14 applies to secular, as well as spiritual matters (in and outside
of the assembly) in February 2003, Lord willing at:

http://www.religiousinstructor.com/feb03/debate.html

(I'll try to post it this week, Lord willing...early <g>).

Thanks for reading,
Mark J. Ward
The Religious Instructor
http://www.religiousinstuctor.com

(from MARS-LIST DIGEST 3797,  January 14, 2003)

*****************

Subject:
Re: Women Teachers
Date:
Tue, 14 Jan 2003 23:45:33 -0500
From:
"Mark J. Ward" <markjward@darientel.net>
To:
mars-list@mtsu.edu



Mark J. Ward, here to the List...

I appreciate Don Martin's comments on this thread, although we are in
slight disagreement <g> on a few things and hopefully will continue to
study this matter to arrive at unity on God's truth in those areas of
disagreement (that follow):

1. "Prophetesses" were not the only women under consideration in I Cor.
11 (EVERY woman...praying OR prophesying).... since women could PRAY
without a spiritual gift and therefore not prophesy (please note the
word "or" in the text of I Cor. 11:1-16)....~Praying women~ were not
necessarily "prophetesses" or ladies with spiritual gifts....
2. More than just the "prophets wives" are under consideration in I Cor.
14:34,35 given the "b" part of vs 35.

Maybe I misunderstand you, Don? Would you comment on the following,
given your understanding of 2nd person and 3rd person of the verbs and
pronouns in the text of I Cor. 14:34,35? Thanks

*********
from http://www.religiousinstructor.com/may00/icor14.html

Does "Your Women" Only Refer To The Prophet's Wives?

Another thing to keep in mind is that the prohibition in verses 34-35 is
not just against inspired women speaking, it is against all women (verse
35b). Some maintain that the "your women" of verse 34 is referring only
to those women belonging to the prophets (their wives), since the
section has just concluded discussing the prophets in verses 29-32. The
argument then is that since there are no prophets today, there are no
prophet's wives, therefore the passage applies to no one today. I don't
believe that the passage is only referring to the prophet's wives for at
least two reasons. One reason is because verse 33 seems to be the
conclusion to the preceding paragraph, and indeed many translations so
mark it. Regardless, it is impossible to prove from the context that the
"your women" of verse 34 only refers to the prophet's wives, it can only
be an assumption.

The second reason that I do not believe that the "your women" of
verse 34 refers only to the prophet's wives is because of the
difference in person of the verbs and pronouns used in the passage. The
book of I Corinthians is addressed to all the saints in Corinth (I Cor
1:2) and therefore a second person verb or pronoun would naturally be
referring to the whole group unless otherwise stated. Closer to the
immediate context of the verses in question, I Cor 14:6 shows us that
Paul is addressing the "brethren" as a whole, not just a selected
portion. The word "brethren" is used again in verses 20, 26, and 39,
showing that the whole chapter is addressed to the brethren as a group;
this group as a whole is what is being addressed by the second person
verbs and pronouns. Notice then that the "your" (second person) women
of verse 34 would naturally refer, not to a select group of women, but
to the Corinthian women as a whole.

Notice that when select groups of the brethren are being talked
about, such as the tongue speakers and the prophets in verses 27-32, the
third person is generally used. Most can see this for themselves from
the English. As for the Greek, I am told that the verb "speak" in verse
27 is in the third person, "keep silence" and "speak" in verse 28 is in
the third person, as well as the verbs "speak" in verse 29, and "are
subject" in verse 32. On the other hand, the verb "come together" in
verse 26 is in the second person, referring to all the "brethren" (not
just a select group) and the word "your" in "your women" in verse 34
comes from the pronoun "you," obviously referring to the whole group
being addressed just as verse 26 is. Note: I believe that verse 31
(second person verb "prophesy") is again referring to the brethren as a
whole, and is basically teaching that following these regulations would
give an opportunity for all to prophesy, which all should covet to do
(verse 39).

--excerpt from Does I Corinthians 14:34-35 Apply To The Modern Day
Assembly? by Patrick T. Donahue

*******************
Mark here:
I do wish to thank him for bringing up the English Standard Version's
approach in I Cor. 11:3 and add/note the following...check the whole
verse out and notice the "switch" on "man" to "husband" in the verse
<g>....

"3. But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ,
the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God."

Wonder why they didn't translate the first oppty "...the head of every
man is CHrist" as "...the head of every husband is Christ"???

Thanks for reading and for the posts that generate much study and thot
on this list,

Mark J. Ward
The Religious Instructor
http://www.religiousinstructor.com

(from MARS-LIST DIGEST 3797,  January 14, 2003)

*************

Subject:
Re: Women teachers
Date:
Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:25:27 -0700
From:
"Don Martin" <dmartin5@concentric.net>
To:
<mars-list@frank.mtsu.edu>



Don Martin to the list:

Mark Ward responded to a recent post pertaining to the women of I
Corinthians 14: 34 and also a separate reference to the prophetesses
mentioned in I Corinthians 11. Notice what Mark said and HOW he said it:

I appreciate Don Martin's comments on this thread, although we are in
slight disagreement <g> on a few things and hopefully will continue to
study this matter to arrive at unity on God's truth in those areas of
disagreement (that follow):

1. "Prophetesses" were not the only women under consideration in I Cor.
11 (EVERY woman...praying OR prophesying).... since women could PRAY
without a spiritual gift and therefore not prophesy (please note the
word "or" in the text of I Cor. 11:1-16)....~Praying women~ were not
necessarily "prophetesses" or ladies with spiritual gifts....
2. More than just the "prophets wives" are under consideration in I Cor.
14:34,35 given the "b" part of vs 35.

Maybe I misunderstand you, Don? Would you comment on the following,
given your understanding of 2nd person and 3rd person of the verbs and
pronouns in the text of I Cor. 14:34,35? Thanks

Don comments:

First, I want to thank Mark for his kind way of disagreeing. I do become
very drained when I have to disagree in an atmosphere of blood letting. I
commend Mark and set forth his example for all of us to follow. I think
Mark and I do disagree, but I believe we shall discuss our differences in a
mature and cordial fashion.

Mark said:

1. "Prophetesses" were not the only women under consideration in I Cor.
11 (EVERY woman...praying OR prophesying).... since women could PRAY
without a spiritual gift and therefore not prophesy (please note the
word "or" in the text of I Cor. 11:1-16)....

Don answers:

I would like to comment on your question and then have you pose to me five
well considered questions pertaining to the women of I Corinthians 11 and
14. I personally believe the women of these texts are different and varying
circumstances are involved, so if you can, why not keep the two texts
separate?

Please allow me to quote from my article in Bible Truths titled, "The Truth
about the Veil."

"...A question which must be answered is, who were the men and women of
verses four and five and exactly what were they doing? Beloved, these men
and women were "praying or prophesying." The prophet (one who prophesied)
possessed a miraculous gift, ".a proclaimer of a divine message." (Vine).
Prophesy was one of the nine gifts of the Spirit (12: 8-10). The "praying"
used in connection with "prophesying" was obviously miraculous prayer (Eph.
6: 18, I Cor. 14: 14, see addendum, No. 2). Let us appreciate the fact that
the women under consideration were doing exactly the same thing as their
male counterpart, the prophets. Hence, these women were female prophets or
prophetesses (Miriam was the first to be called a prophetess, Ex. 15:
20).....

Addendum (No. 2): As observed, the specified men and women of I
Corinthians 11 were the same in that they were praying or prophesying. They
were doing exactly the same thing and in the same circumstances. Some,
however, want to argue that while the "prophesying" was miraculous, the
"praying" was uninspired. Hence, women today in general must have "something
on their heads."

Please consider the following quotation: "Since the 'praying' of I Cor.
11: 4, 5 is joined to the 'prophesying' and prophesying is ALWAYS inspired
teaching, and since both the praying and prophesying are adjectives
(participles) modifying the same man and the same woman, there is here
strong presumptive evidence that the praying is inspired praying and not
ordinary prayers of uninspired people" (The Woman and Her Covering, pg. 17,
by Bill Cavender)....."

Mark, since I believe the "praying" or "prophesying" were both miraculous, I
do view the addressed women of I Corinthians 11: 3-16 as one class:
prophetesses, the counter-part of the prophets.

Mark stated:

2. More than just the "prophets wives" are under consideration in I Cor.
14: 34, 35 given the "b" part of vs 35.

Don comments:

Mark, I believe your goal is to remove any apparent (in my judgment)
specificity from the women of the two texts and, therefore, have the
enunciated teaching in every particularity apply to all women today (all who
are Christians). Herein, we do differ. I do concur there there are some
general principles, but I contend that there are also some special and
incapable of being duplicated circumstances today seen in these texts.

The statement or explanation, "for it is a shame for women to speak in the
church" is defined by the context. I believe the context to be some women
at Corinth doing something that was resulting in confusion and disorder (I
Cor. 14: 33-40, full setting 1-40). It is not a shame for the female
Christian to "sing songs of praise" in the assembly (Eph. 5: 19). However,
it was a shame to speak in the particular matter and situation being
considered. Hence, I do not see a different class of women present in the
second part of verse 35; hence, all women in the church at Corinth being
immediately addressed. Of course, it is "a shame" for a woman, any woman
or man, any man, for that matter, to speak so as to cause the confusion that
evidently was being observed at Corinth (general application).

Why not asked me the questions now that will, hopefully, organize our posts?
Pick your hardest ones that you believe provide a necessary and inescapable
set up for the conclusions that you view as inevitable, please. I will do
my best to answer them.

Thanks again for the cordiality characteristic of your posts (I am presently
overwhelmed with incoming email and questions largely associated with our
Bible Questions work, so, please be patient with me in my replies).

 

(from MARS-List Digest 3798, January 15,2003)

 

************************

Subject:
Re: Women Teachers
Date:
Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:46:10 -0500
From:
"Mark J. Ward" <markjward@darientel.net>
To:
mars-list@mtsu.edu, markjward@darientel.net



Mark J. Ward, here to Don Martin and the Mars-listers:

Don, I appreciate your kind words very much. I agree that we can study with love
and maturity, yet press each others' positions in trying to achieve unity on God's
Truth. I would like to make a few observations and encourage the listers to study material on all sides of these issues that are before us.

Please consider the info herein and I will try to develop 5 questions on I Cor. 14:34,35 and 5 on I Corinthians 11 for brother Don Martin in later posts with regards to our differences as I understand them...(then maybe we can both do an exegesis on a larger group of verses in chapter 14 and 1-16 verses of chapter 11, if you would like???).

I hope it is ok to quote two things that already have been posted by Don and then
reply (that we can study more deeply as we go into future posts) so as to give all
the listers a point of reference on our differences. I would like to quote part of an
outline you had in an earlier post from I Cor. 14 and quote what you had from an
article on I Cor. 11 found at Bible Truths that you had in an earlier post...followed by a reference to an article I have at The Religious Instructor. Don, you comment or not (no problem if you don't at this time) for I will honor your request by spending some time analyzing our differences (as I understand them to be) and develop 10 questions and set up new subject lines (one for I Cor. 14 and one for I Cor. 11) at a later time. God bless us all in our studies and in your efforts, Don, to reach the lost via all your teaching efforts (including the Bible Truths website).

Don had written:
****************
"Please allow me to quote from my article in Bible Truths titled, "The Truth
about the Veil."

"...A question which must be answered is, who were the men and women of
verses four and five and exactly what were they doing? Beloved, these men
and women were "praying or prophesying." The prophet (one who prophesied)
possessed a miraculous gift, ".a proclaimer of a divine message." (Vine).
Prophesy was one of the nine gifts of the Spirit (12: 8-10). The "praying"
used in connection with "prophesying" was obviously miraculous prayer (Eph.
6: 18, I Cor. 14: 14, see addendum, No. 2). Let us appreciate the fact that
the women under consideration were doing exactly the same thing as their
male counterpart, the prophets. Hence, these women were female prophets or
prophetesses (Miriam was the first to be called a prophetess, Ex. 15:
20).....

"Addendum (No. 2): As observed, the specified men and women of I
Corinthians 11 were the same in that they were praying or prophesying. They
were doing exactly the same thing and in the same circumstances. Some,
however, want to argue that while the "prophesying" was miraculous, the
"praying" was uninspired. Hence, women today in general must have "something
on their heads."

"Please consider the following quotation: "Since the 'praying' of I Cor.
11: 4, 5 is joined to the 'prophesying' and prophesying is ALWAYS inspired
teaching, and since both the praying and prophesying are adjectives
(participles) modifying the same man and the same woman, there is here
strong presumptive evidence that the praying is inspired praying and not
ordinary prayers of uninspired people" (The Woman and Her Covering, pg. 17,
by Bill Cavender).....

"Mark, since I believe the "praying" or "prophesying" were both miraculous, I
do view the addressed women of I Corinthians 11: 3-16 as one class:
prophetesses, the counter-part of the prophets."
********************
++++++++++++++++++
Mark counters (to be expanded in later posts):

Please see that "prophets" in the New Testament were NOT always inspired
speakers (Titus 1:12). This is a major flaw, in my humble estimation, in the "spiritual gifts view" as advocated by good brethren like Gene Frost (please carefully study his article "I Corinthians 11:1-16" at The Gospel Anchor Quarterly, Vol. 1, No. 3 circa 1957,58 ), brother Bill Cavender (please read and study carefully his tract "A Woman and Her Covering"), and brother Don Martin (please read and study carefully his entire article at the website he referenced earlier).

I have an article entitled, "Mistakes Some Make Regarding I Corinthians 11:1-16" at:

http://www.religiousinstructor.com/mar02/cover.html

wherein (in part) I note the following:

"...Diversity of Belief

"Good brethren disagree over the proper understanding and application of I Corinthians 11:1-16. There are at least 5 positions (and varying views among the five main convictions) held by brethren today. God's Word is not ambiguous. The truth needs to be continually sought and then properly applied! Good brethren should be able to discuss differences on this subject, as well as any other Bible subject. It is sad that many brethren, when given the opportunity to discuss this subject (while they might preach or write on the subject) are not willing to have their views examined in honorable discussion (written or oral). Such an examination is good for people who are studying. Sometimes argumentation that "sounds good" at first blush is found lacking when opposed with scriptural refutation in the light of open discussion. In this article, let us look at a few of the mistakes some well-intentioned brethren make in their discernments on this important Bible text.

"Praying AND Prophesying" versus "Praying OR Prophesying"

"Some brethren teach that prophesying is exclusively the teaching done by one under inspiration of the Holy Spirit (except for false prophesying, they might say). Then, they proceed to associate the "praying" in I Corinthians 11 exclusively with prayer that was being done by one who was a recipient of one of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit listed in I Corinthians 12. They reason that since spiritual gifts have ceased, then there are no people today to whom this text would apply.
This could be called the "spiritual gifts" position on I Corinthians 11.

" There are several mistakes made in reaching this conclusion. Let us look at some of the problems with this reasoning.

"1. Prophesying is NOT exclusively inspired teaching. Thayer's "d" definition of the word used for prophesying in I Cor. 11 is, "...to teach..." (pg. 553). Also, Titus 1:12 is an example of an uninspired true prophet. While the definition of "prophesying" would include inspired teaching, why would anyone want to exclude uninspired teaching?

"2. Praying is NOT a gift of the Spirit. Furthermore, the reasoning is unsound that asserts that this "praying" is prayer only by those who had spiritual gifts (miraculous gifts). What in the text would teach that "every man praying or prophesying" and "every woman praying or prophesying" would be limited to those exercising spiritual gifts? Men and women still pray today. Consider: The passage does not suggest: "Every man with a spiritual gift praying or prophesying with his head covered dishonoreth his head." Nor does the passage read, "Every
prophetess praying or prophesying...." but reads "Every man..." and "Every woman...". Are we to believe that first century woman who either: did not have a spiritual gift (herself) or, was being led in prayer by a man who did NOT have a spiritual gift could pray uncovered in light of this theory? But, she would have to cover her head if the man leading the prayer HAD a gift of the Spirit? In other words, if the covering of the head for women was during the times of praying or prophesying exclusively during the exercising of spiritual gifts, then when uninspired teaching occurred OR whenever prayer was engaged in by those who did not have miraculous gifts, why would the passage apply then? Every man is to pray uncovered and every woman is to pray covered according to the message in the text.

"3. The two actions are not JOINED by the word "AND", but are SEPARATED by the word "OR". I often see writings of brethren, capable men who are able teachers, making this mistake. The inspired pen of Paul does not conjoin the actions with the word "AND", but rather uses the word "OR". Every man (whether) praying or prophesying should be uncovered and every woman (whether) praying or prophesying should be covered."

Since the assertion that prophesying is ALWAYS inspired speech is incorrect, the entire assumption about trying to make "praying" in the text of I Corinthians 11 mean ONLY INSPIRED PRAYING is incorrect. Also, the inspired wording of "or" in the text is extremely significant and separates, rather than joins, praying from prophesying. By what rule of Bible interpretation would we conclude that "praying" in I Cor. 11 is ONLY INSPIRED PRAYING?
+++++++++++++++++++++++
**************************
Also, brother Don Martin had an outline on I Cor. 14 in an earlier post wherein (in part) he wrote:

"...C. The women of verse thirty-four were not women in general, they were
married women (vs. 35).

D. Certain women with regulation were obviously speaking in the assembly
(prophetesses, 11: 3-16). Hence, it was not a "shame for women to speak in
the church" in general (vs. 35). The women of verse 34 appear to have been
the prophets' wives who were asking questions of their husbands in the
assembly in such a way as to cause confusion; hence, they were to ask their
husbands "at home" (vs. 35)."

Mark responds (to be expanded later):
The women in the "b" part of verse 35 ~are~ all women <g>. We obviously disagree and I look forward to deeper study to follow and reading Don's thots. I believe that the God-given reason that "your women" (whoever they were) were forbidden from speaking in the churches was due to the fact that God teaches us in vs35b, "for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." Consider if we sub the meaning Don gives into the text (a good way to test our interpretations), "35 And if ~prophets' wives~ will learn any thing, let ~prophets' wives~ ask ~prophets' wives'~ husbands at home: for it is a shame for ~prophets' wives~ to speak in the church." So, unmarried women and women married to non-prophets are exempt from this instruction (given this interpretation on verse 35b) and could speak in the churches??? I can't embrace that (yet). Please don't give up on me.

I would also recommend the readership carefully study brother Windell Wiser's "A Reply to Bill Cavender's 'A Woman and Her Covering'." Which will be at my website in the next few days, Lord willing at:

http://www.religiousinstructor.com/cover/wreply.html

More later. Don, I do appreciate so much your kind and loving approach in disagreement, while pressing your points you express love for truth and righteousness. Thanks again for the kindnesses shown my way and you will always be my friend, as others are on this list, to try to teach me wherein y'all believe I err.

In Christian love,
Mark J. Ward
The Religious Instructor
http://www.religiousinstructor.com

(from MARS-List Digest 3799, January 15, 2003

*******************

Subject:
Re: Women teachers
Date:
Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:06:14 -0700
From:
"Don Martin" <dmartin5@concentric.net>
To:
<mars-list@frank.mtsu.edu>



Don Martin to Mark Ward and the list:

I bid all a good day.

Before I say anything, I want to mention that I am experiencing some
computer problems. My CPU receives heavy workouts and about once a year it
goes down (big time), I am hoping this is not about to happen. I have done
all the work that I can and it is, as I type, working.

Mark wrote:

More later. Don, I do appreciate so much your kind and loving approach in
disagreement, while pressing your points you express love for truth and
righteousness. Thanks again for the kindnesses shown my way and you will
always be my friend, as others are on this list, to try to teach me wherein
y'all believe I err.

Don comments:

Mark, again thank you for the fine spirit of your responsive posts. Two
primary matters that always concern me about entering a discussion on a list
such as ML is, first, maintaining a desirable dialogue, which, in this case,
I think is no problem. The other matter is organizing the study to where it
is readily discernable and intelligible. We can have too much material and
escape the attention of the average reader (I know because I am inclined to
do this). Mark, I have asked you to submit five questions to me on the
"women" of I Corinthians 11 and then, separately, questions on the women of
I Corinthians 14. You have elected to publish material at this time with
the statement that you will publish questions later.

At this stage, I am in a quandary. Do I respond to your material or wait
for the questions. I am afraid that if I respond to your material, the
result is going to be two-fold: The reader is going to be inundated and any
subsequent questions will be defeated.

Mark, you, of course, have a mind of your own as to how you want to pursue
this difference between you and men relative to the women of I Corinthians
11 and 14. Since you have chosen to first present general teaching, I think
I shall simply remain non-responsive to the material rather than become
bogged down.

Cordially,
Don Martin dmartin5@concentric.net

Check out our Web sites: http://www.bibletruths.net
Ask a question and receive a Bible answer http://www.biblequestions.org
Simply click on the URL to visit these sites. You may print out
the material for teaching purposes, see the copyright
provision on the home page of Bible Truths.

 

(From MARS-List 3800, January 16, 2003)

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[Editor’s Note: This is one of the most in-depth, comprehensive studies between two brethren on the issue of whether "the spiritual gifts view" of I Corinthians 11:1-16 is true, or whether God requires women today to cover their heads with an artifical covering whenever they pray. We hope all readers will continue to study all Bible topics with open minds, willing to conform to God's Truth. Thanks for reading! - Mark J. Ward markjward@yahoo.com]


Email the Editor at markjward@yahoo.com


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